Seti Astro Suite - a mini PixInsight? [Deep Sky] Processing techniques · Tony Gondola · ... · 65 · 2767 · 0

Clayton Ostler:

AstroShed:

So, I agree with many here who conclude SAS is not quite a replacement for PI (yet), or like me whatever other successful process you are using.  I do look forward to having this statement become obsolete!

It will NEVER replace PI, let’s be real here, there is too much knowledge within the team of developers at PI, and as much as SAS advances, so will PI, and the gap will never close, don’t get me wrong SAS is an excellent tool, and kudos to Frank, but the tools within it lack the advancement of PI tools in every way, yes there are a couple of useful features that are not in PI, and for that alone it’s worth having it installed, but will never replace PI, IMHO anyway.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, and I'm relatively new to pixinsight maybe 2 years. The real reason I purchased it was so that I could use blur exterminator. But I feel like most of the cool things I do in pixinsight are third party scripts that they didn't write. I'm grateful that they put together a platform that people can plug these scripts into but I don't feel like I'm getting a lot of real innovation out of that product. Seems like about 2 months ago it released a new version I was really excited about gradient removal, and the new version is not really any better than the old one. 

I get updates about a new Mars catalog and frankly I don't even know what that means. Hahaha 

I'm not slamming pixinsight they got my 300 bucks already, but I feel like the things that I love most about it are either free elsewhere or paid elsewhere. Maybe I'm such a newbie that I don't understand how to use the power of the tools, because most of the scripts I'm using didn't come from them. 

I actually think the SAS product kind of exposes this. I'm not saying that I can't do more in pixinsight, But is that because they've built some amazing software or because someone else is written some amazing scripts? 

I was looking at my one shot camera processing flow, with the exception of color calibration, everything else is external scripts or plugins that I've bought.

You will laugh but I've actually stopped using WPP for stacking because it's giant hot mess. I get that it could potentially be more powerful but I can't figure it out, and I can just throw them into the ZWO suite or DSS and be done in a few minutes or I can meddle with it and pixinsight because no one is bothered to make the UI understandable or usable. For my 300 bucks it seems like someone would sit down and create a wizard, crazy thought huh? I don't need to hear how magically powerful it is compared to the other tools, real software should be usable, I shouldn't have to read a book or watch a tutorial I should be able to use it and then watch a tutorial and figure out how to use it better. Yes I'm in software. 

Someone tell me why my plate solver can't just download the catalog on its own without having me download it manually and point it to that directory? How about we do some actual design in the software? I could go on and on with this kind of stuff, I understand that they're trying to create power for users who know what they're doing, but a bunch of this is just straight up lazy

I think personally I give pi a lot of undo credit for amazing things that I do within it. Let's not pretend that they did anything for blurxterminator, I actually think that whole thing propelled their company through the roof I hope they're getting a kickback on those sales.

So you don't use any of the following, which I use in my processing flow I guess:
HistrogramTransformation
CurvesTransformation
ColorSaturation
Statistics
FWHMEccentricity
HDRMultiscaleTransform
DynamicCrop
BackgroundNeutralization
PixelMath
ArcsinhStretch
GradientCorrection
LinearFit
LocalHistogramEqualization
SCNR
Blink
SubframeSelector
LocalNormalization
ImageIntegration

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, those are just what I thought of off the top of my head.  As far as I know all of those are native parts of PixInsight.  I'm not saying anyone needs top use PixInsight.  Use whatever tools work best for you.  I do think if you are using PixInsight and truly the only tool you use that is native is ColorCalibration (better to use SPCC) then you're probably using it suboptimally.  Perhaps you're not also aware that all those scripts that you use to automate processing for you frequently are running PI native processes to achieve their effects.  PI was the most used AP processing software long before BlurX.  After all that's WHY BlurX was made for PI rather than something else, it had the biggest market available.

Clayton Ostler:

Kyle Goodwin:

Clayton Ostler:

AstroShed:

So, I agree with many here who conclude SAS is not quite a replacement for PI (yet), or like me whatever other successful process you are using.  I do look forward to having this statement become obsolete!

It will NEVER replace PI, let’s be real here, there is too much knowledge within the team of developers at PI, and as much as SAS advances, so will PI, and the gap will never close, don’t get me wrong SAS is an excellent tool, and kudos to Frank, but the tools within it lack the advancement of PI tools in every way, yes there are a couple of useful features that are not in PI, and for that alone it’s worth having it installed, but will never replace PI, IMHO anyway.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, and I'm relatively new to pixinsight maybe 2 years. The real reason I purchased it was so that I could use blur exterminator. But I feel like most of the cool things I do in pixinsight are third party scripts that they didn't write. I'm grateful that they put together a platform that people can plug these scripts into but I don't feel like I'm getting a lot of real innovation out of that product. Seems like about 2 months ago it released a new version I was really excited about gradient removal, and the new version is not really any better than the old one. 

I get updates about a new Mars catalog and frankly I don't even know what that means. Hahaha 

I'm not slamming pixinsight they got my 300 bucks already, but I feel like the things that I love most about it are either free elsewhere or paid elsewhere. Maybe I'm such a newbie that I don't understand how to use the power of the tools, because most of the scripts I'm using didn't come from them. 

I actually think the SAS product kind of exposes this. I'm not saying that I can't do more in pixinsight, But is that because they've built some amazing software or because someone else is written some amazing scripts? 

I was looking at my one shot camera processing flow, with the exception of color calibration, everything else is external scripts or plugins that I've bought.

You will laugh but I've actually stopped using WPP for stacking because it's giant hot mess. I get that it could potentially be more powerful but I can't figure it out, and I can just throw them into the ZWO suite or DSS and be done in a few minutes or I can meddle with it and pixinsight because no one is bothered to make the UI understandable or usable. For my 300 bucks it seems like someone would sit down and create a wizard, crazy thought huh? I don't need to hear how magically powerful it is compared to the other tools, real software should be usable, I shouldn't have to read a book or watch a tutorial I should be able to use it and then watch a tutorial and figure out how to use it better. Yes I'm in software. 

Someone tell me why my plate solver can't just download the catalog on its own without having me download it manually and point it to that directory? How about we do some actual design in the software? I could go on and on with this kind of stuff, I understand that they're trying to create power for users who know what they're doing, but a bunch of this is just straight up lazy

I think personally I give pi a lot of undo credit for amazing things that I do within it. Let's not pretend that they did anything for blurxterminator, I actually think that whole thing propelled their company through the roof I hope they're getting a kickback on those sales.

So you don't use any of the following, which I use in my processing flow I guess:
HistrogramTransformation
CurvesTransformation
ColorSaturation
Statistics
FWHMEccentricity
HDRMultiscaleTransform
DynamicCrop
BackgroundNeutralization
PixelMath
ArcsinhStretch
GradientCorrection
LinearFit
LocalHistogramEqualization
SCNR
Blink
SubframeSelector
LocalNormalization
ImageIntegration

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, those are just what I thought of off the top of my head.  As far as I know all of those are native parts of PixInsight.  I'm not saying anyone needs top use PixInsight.  Use whatever tools work best for you.  I do think if you are using PixInsight and truly the only tool you use that is native is ColorCalibration (better to use SPCC) then you're probably using it suboptimally.  Perhaps you're not also aware that all those scripts that you use to automate processing for you frequently are running PI native processes to achieve their effects.  PI was the most used AP processing software long before BlurX.  After all that's WHY BlurX was made for PI rather than something else, it had the biggest market available.

Honestly I don't use much of that stuff. But I see your point. I just haven't seen anything new or innovative from them in years. For the price of the software I would assume they have a team, but the innovation suggests it might be a single dev working with some open source friends. 15 years ago WinZip was valuable too.

I might suggest that you could get more value from PI by using some of those things and digging into how some of the scripts you use work to understand the processes which they use.  I have plenty of my own gripes about PI after using it for 12 years, and I think I'd prefer if it were a subscription so their revenue would be high enough to support a larger team ($300 might seem like a lot, but the AP market is tiny and you get very few sales).  Overall, though, I think the value is extremely solid. You might want to also read up on what the MARS project is all about here: https://pixinsight.com/mars/

andrea tasselli:

Clayton Ostler:

andrea tasselli:
Nobody forced you to buy PI, I'd reckon. Pity you can't get your money back...

Dont feel defensive about it.  They got my money just like yours  Then I dropped more money in the XTerminitor plugins. 

But I'm not singing their praises, they might be experts, but other 300$ software packages get ongoing innovation. How about an actual check box to turn on GPU acceleration instead of jumping through ridiculous hoops. 

I honestly feel that they have taken advantage of the fact that most of us are technically inclined and willing to rtfm, but that's not real software development. 

Its the most expensive piece of software I've purchased in 10 years. But it's clearly not the most polished. 

It's like me telling my friends why my Linux desktop is better than their Mac. Hahaha. The only difference is that I didn't take it in the shorts to buy Gentoo.

Yes I will keep using it. Not because it takes awesome, but because it's better than the free stuff. If I include the scripts and plugins

*So you fancy having a fight about it, isn't it?  Try to do that on the Pixinsight forum and see how it goes. C'mon, go and vent your nonsense there... And, by the way, you had one whole frigging month to test to your leisure before committing to buy, 'nuf said.

I think you're missing my point I'm not upset that I bought it. I'm upset that people seem to think it walks on water. ND that doesn't have has a ton of flawa. I'm saying that in my experience most of the credit that it gets, is due to things that other people have built.
Sure you can find a bunch of friends on the forum who will argue with me about it. But what's the point?  I would love to hear an explanation why wanting UI to turn on the GPU is nonsense? Or expecting the app to download catalog on its own is nonsense? I would love to know why an upgrade wipes out my scripts and I have to fix it on my own, is that nonsense? I would love to know why other people have to write scripts to make it usable instead of just making the product usable on its own, none of that is nonsense. These scripts are because user interface is terrible and people have to read books to learn how to use it.

I recognize that I, just like most of the other people in this hobby am very opinionated, we're all opinionated and we're all ferociously defending anything that we purchase or do. We do it with equipment, we do it with software, we do it with processes. I do it too, to a huge fault   

I'm not attacking anyone, to each their own. But let's not pretend that the the people that sold me pixinsight care about my user experience. Yes, I knew the UI was terrible when I bought it.

Most of the tutorials that I have to view were created by someone else. The fact that I had to watch a 30 minute video to learn how to stack images is not user friendly. You can call any of this nonsense, and I respectfully accept your opinion.

But rounding up other PI lovers won't change that it could use serious work to be end user friendly. But maybe that's the point, maybe we don't want regular people doing AP, just those with enough deep knowledge to figure it out. 

Nuff said , mic drop. Let's just agree to disagree. 

I'm sure we like different cars too , but we both still have to drive to get from place to place.

I can't convince my wife that my old jeep is better than her infinity either.

I find that Pixinsight seems more like a platform for others to create scripts/processes. I use a few native processes in PI but most of those haven't changed in years. I wish they would fix some UI irritations like proper support for an apple mouse for one thing.

Robert Sahari:

Kyle Goodwin:

So you don't use any of the following, which I use in my processing flow I guess:
HistrogramTransformation
CurvesTransformation
ColorSaturation
Statistics
FWHMEccentricity
HDRMultiscaleTransform
DynamicCrop
BackgroundNeutralization
PixelMath
ArcsinhStretch
GradientCorrection
LinearFit
LocalHistogramEqualization
SCNR
Blink
SubframeSelector
LocalNormalization
ImageIntegration

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, those are just what I thought of off the top of my head.  As far as I know all of those are native parts of PixInsight.  I'm not saying anyone needs top use PixInsight.  Use whatever tools work best for you.  I do think if you are using PixInsight and truly the only tool you use that is native is ColorCalibration (better to use SPCC) then you're probably using it suboptimally.  Perhaps you're not also aware that all those scripts that you use to automate processing for you frequently are running PI native processes to achieve their effects.  PI was the most used AP processing software long before BlurX.  After all that's WHY BlurX was made for PI rather than something else, it had the biggest market available.

Why would I pay €376.50 for those things. Most of those are available for free and of the same quality in Siril and much more easily usable without digging through tons of unsorted menus.

As Clayton said, the most interesting stuff in PixInsight are the plugins, which cost extra and the scripts, which Siril gets more and more support for aswell.

PixInsight feels like Adobe at this point.

I don't think anyone is telling you to? If someone says they don't use any native processes and everything they do in PI is 3rd party then I think it makes sense to point out things that are native that I use a lot.  PixInsight doesn't charge you a subscription, so I'm not sure how the Adobe comparison applies.  If you want to use Siril, use Siril!

Robert Sahari:
Why would I pay €376.50 for those things. Most of those are available for free and of the same quality in Siril and much more easily usable without digging through tons of unsorted menus.

As Clayton said, the most interesting stuff in PixInsight are the plugins, which cost extra and the scripts, which Siril gets more and more support for aswell.

PixInsight feels like Adobe at this point.

Don't. But don't diss PI pretending that you know it inside out, as it doesn't seems that way most emphatically. And if you think that Siril use is comparable in features as well, you're a long way off in that regard. I started using Siril when Iris was no longer viable to see how it stacked up against PI and there was no comparison, back then and now. With all due respect to Siril team and Siril itself which I think it's a hell of a software but the single stream software paradigm is so passee. I wouldn't have coughed up the then 250 euros (plus VAT) for PI otherwise. And (third-party) plugins are NOT why you should get PI (and most are useless anyway). If that is what moves you to to PI then move on, it isn't for you.

Clayton Ostler:

Kyle Goodwin:

I would love to hear an explanation why wanting UI to turn on the GPU is nonsense?

PixInsight doesn't really use the GPU for native processes, so it's really more an issue for the plugins.  Russ Crowman provides an update plugin method of enabling it which seems to work well and that makes sense since his plugins utilize the GPU when it's available.

So our expensive image processing software that is better than sliced bread, hasn't been coded or optimized for modern gpu hardware. I'm not sure if that sounds better or worse than the other scenario.  

I have to apologize to this group. I'm not trying to offend anyone. 

Im coming across as really snarky.

I'm not upset or trying to be confrontational, I'm just less impressed with PI every day something similar is launched for free. I'm not arguing if it's the. best solution or not, just that there's a lot that could be done with the money it's making. 

I understand AP is not for the masses, but its current software isnt helping that cause. I guess it's chicken and egg.

Better to just focus on improving our techniques and images I think. If you like a software use it. If you don’t, don’t. Pretty simple.

Clayton Ostler:

Kyle Goodwin:

I would love to hear an explanation why wanting UI to turn on the GPU is nonsense?

PixInsight doesn't really use the GPU for native processes, so it's really more an issue for the plugins.  Russ Crowman provides an update plugin method of enabling it which seems to work well and that makes sense since his plugins utilize the GPU when it's available.

So our expensive image processing software that is better than sliced bread, hasn't been coded or optimized for modern gpu hardware. I'm not sure if that sounds better or worse than the other scenario.  

I have to apologize to this group. I'm not trying to offend anyone. 

Im coming across as really snarky.

I'm not upset or trying to be confrontational, I'm just less impressed with PI every day something similar is launched for free. I'm not arguing if it's the. best solution or not, just that there's a lot that could be done with the money it's making. 

I understand AP is not for the masses, but it's current software isnt helping that cause. I guess it's chicken and egg.

Not every task CAN be done on a GPU. In fact, GPU cores are only really good at doing the exact same small operation LOTS of times simultaneously.

I'm a software engineer, and I've utilised cuda acceleration a LOT for VERY VERY specific tasks, however Its important to note for PI, almost nothing would benefit from GPU acceleration.

Even FAR more mainstream software packages like Photoshop does not utilize the GPU for 99% of tasks, and Premiere Pro, a video editing software package performs better using a CPU's integrated GPU than a dedicated GPU... 

Its like saying "Well my Lamborghini is fast, why can't it beat a sprint car in the dirt?"  Horses for courses... The fact that in a software suite as specific as PI allows user created processes, and people are producing GPU accelerated AI based processes and tools for us to use is absolutely amazing... 

With PI, your best bet is to have the following things, in this order of priority.
1. High CPU core/thread count.
2. High CPU Clock speed and individual core performance (Ie. higher IPC (Instructions per clock)).
3. Fast NVMe storage for both working files and PI swap files.
4. Lots of RAM.. 32Gb is great, 64Gb is better... 128+ is where you start to see diminishing returns.
5. A GPU with CUDA acceleration.

The first 4 will make EVERYTHING in PI perform well.

#5 will only improve AI tasks (Graxpert, BXT, NXT, SXT, Seti-Astro's AI deconvolution/sharpening tool).

I consider all 5 points to be important, but if my budget meant I had to skimp anywhere, I'd be running a 10 series nvidia GPU, like a 1070 from 2015 that you can pick up for next to nothing used...