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Back to the subject of fan w/o EFA. I think I will just wind up using my new UPB 3 variable output 3-12 VDC to power the fans when I install the new UPB V3 in the spring. The only downside for me is that I also plan to have a fan on my Epsilon and thought I needed another variable 3-12 VDC for that but the UPB V3 only has one. They do, however, have a second variable 12-24 VDC. I was able to get a 40 mm 24 VDC fan to use on the Epsilon so problem solved. Turns out those are a common fan, being used to cool 3D print heads...  |
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Bill McLaughlin: I had no issue on the Epsilon running the fan at full 12v all night long, so I moved it to a normal 12v port. Bill |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:Bill McLaughlin: Good to know but since this is the small 130, I would like to be able to turn the fan down if needed. Plus it frees up a standard 12V port for other uses and the 12-24 would otherwise be unused... |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: Wow. If I followed that dictum, I wouldn't use anything at all made by Planewave, Takahashi, Moravian, 10Micron, Chroma, Pegasus, or any other vendor that makes anything at all for use in astrophotography. Um, no. There are maybe two or three people here who have had bad experiences with the DT and the UPB. The common thread is the DT, not the UPB. And even then, the model of UPB used in these instances isn't even available any more. This thread is filled with posts about what crap products the DT and EFA are--overwhelmingly so. 12v is 12v. The Pegasus boxes have provided that very reliably for all sorts of devices for me for the last five years. So yeah, I'm going where the evidence actually leads me. One thing I sometimes get on the internet is good advice. But only very rarely. What I usually get is extremely bad advice. I've been running the DT with the UPB v3 for three weeks now with no issues. If there is an issue with the DT, I'm going to call Planewave--not Pegasus. It doesn't matter much anyway. I'm not even going to use the DT for its half-baked intended purpose. I'll use the Pegasus and NINA to control both the CDK fan and the CDK dew heaters. The only reason I've even hooked up the EFA and DT is to monitor their reported temps for the backplate, main mirror, and secondary. Once I have things worked out in NINA, I'll take both those rat traps off the scope. If Planewave wants to move out of the early 1990s, it'll provide a physical hardware and software interface that reports the relevant temps to devices that are designed for this--using something other than a Cat2-to-RS-232-to-RS-232-to-USB2 cable that looks like it came out of a last-page ad in PC Week Magazine circa 1985. Series 5 is supposedly a step forward, but from what I can tell, that only gets them from 1992 to 1998. As you can tell, it's hard for me to hide the disgust I feel about this whole situation. I never would have bought anything Planewave had I known. And I certainly will never do business with them again--at least, not until they propel themselves into the mid 20-teens. |
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Timothy Martin: It is not so much that they are crap products, it is mostly that they are inappropriately bundled as to function. Basically just that the fan control and heater/temperature control belong together and separate from focuser control. The Pegasus boxes have provided that very reliably for all sorts of devices for me for the last five years. Your experience - OK - but any data scientist will tell you that is a single data point only. I have five of their boxes of three types and some are better than others but none are perfect, but again, just a few more data points. The hardware has been mostly OK for me, the software/firmware not so much. I've been running the DT with the UPB v3 for three weeks now with no issues. If there is an issue with the DT, I'm going to call Planewave--not Pegasus. Three weeks is not very long and most people that have had failures have taken longer - mostly much longer. As to who to call, both will blame the problem on the other so good luck with that. For another single data point, I have been running my DT with the serial connection and a separate power supply for almost two years (and hopefully I am not putting the hex on it by saying this  ) so far no issues except for a single night where PWI3 software disconnected for some reason.If Planewave wants to move out of the early 1990s, it'll provide a physical hardware and software interface that reports the relevant temps to devices that are designed for this I think most here would agree with that for the most part. Having said that, the optical and mechanical parts of their scopes are mostly excellent. It is the electronics and software that are lacking. As I have said before, it is almost like they hired the best optical mechanical people they could find but had the same people (now out of their depth) do the electronics. They clearly need a total rethinking of their strategy for focus and thermal control and maybe some new blood in that part of the company. One thing that is odd is that the mounts (I have an L-350) do not suffer from these issues despite having tons of electronics and software components. They are by far the most reliable mounts I have used and I have owned 7 mounts over the past 30 years from the likes of Losmandy and Software Bisque and AP as well as the L-350. They are so bulletproof that Space Domain Awareness companies have chosen them to do satellite tracking - something that is hard on mounts and requires 100% up time. The only issue with the mounts is that they do not like the wind so keep them out of New Mexico and it's too-often windy conditions. BUT... that is not a problem with the construction or electronics, it is inherent in direct drive mounts of any brand. |
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Timothy Martin: Okay, so maybe saying "any at all" is a bit overboard. The point though, is that deploying a system using components that many folks have shown do not play well together -- is not a good idea. If you wish to do so, go right ahead. Best of luck to you on your endeavor for remote imaging. I personally will continue to suggest people scrutinize the components they are using and vet them well. -Bill |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: I totally agree with that. |
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How hard would it be to completely gut the sensors, heaters, and fans and install something sane? Are these difficult to access and service? Sensors and fans are not expensive. If these can be plugged in to a raspberry pi, with a little bit of code, it should be able to control things intelligently, be powered easily, and do away with all of this nonsense. Can even add some redundant sensors for when they go bad and you're remote, since it sounds like they aren't the most reliable. |
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How hard would it be to completely gut the sensors, heaters, and fans and install something sane? Are these difficult to access and service? Perhaps for you, not that hard. But I know nothing about doing something like that, and opening up the CDK to fiddle around inside it is the stuff of nightmares for me. I dread the day when I need to clean the mirror on the CDK12. I've seen Planewave's video on how to do it. Frankly, a self-administered appendectomy looks to be a bit less complicated. Fortunately, Lloyd has a guy at Deep Sky West who will do that for me. I've resigned myself to continuing with the Delta-T. Bill and others here report that it gets the job done as long as you don't try to plug it into a Pegasus box. I don't see why that would be a problem, and bench tests and field tests here at home didn't produce any issues. But being risk averse, when I installed it on site, I did as Bill admonished and plugged it into its original power brick with yet another cable running through the main harness from my electronics enclosure to the OTA. As best I can tell, it's not really the sensors inside the OTA that are the issue. If the Delta-T had a humidity/dew point sensor and the PWI software worked like the Pegasus software does--ramping up dew-heater power as ambient temp approaches the dew point--that would put this whole issue to rest. |
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Timothy Martin: The important thing to keep in mind, is that you only want the heaters on when it is absolutely necessary. That is the real issue with the solution today. With the sensors the Delta T has access to you really do not know if heat needs to be applied or not. I run two CDK's now. One CDK14 and and one CDK20. Luckily, I have John's dew controller on both of them, as it intercepts any attempts to turn the heaters on and validates that the TDP indeed would suggest that dew is imminent. At that point, it allows the controllers to function per your Delta-T config you have set on them. If either of these scopes just allowed Delta-T to operate as is, the mirror heaters would turn on all the time. Even when there is zero chance of dew and the humidity is 15%. Here is my CDK20 in Chile:  Now lets say I had it set to keep both mirrors 1C over ambient. If that was the case, the secondary mirror heater would turn on right now. Here is the weather data:  At 29.3% humdity, there is absolutely ZERO chance dew is imminent. The controllers cannot turn on because the Hayes Controller will not allow it. -Bill |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: How do I get my hands on one of these? |
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Timothy Martin:Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: Not possible. I have one he made me, as we are good friends. The other I got because I bought the scope from him and it was already installed on it. However, he has been very clear about what the box does and how to make one. So you could make one yourself. He posted in this very thread about it. |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: Definitely argues for someone to make a commercial aftermarket version. Not everyone has the time or the skills to do this. I for one would happily pay quite a bit for a robust controller to solve this problem. It would also have the effect of depriving PW of business selling focusers and focus controllers. After all the time they have had to fix this issue and have failed to do so, they deserve to lose the business and whoever comes up with a solid commercial fix deserves to profit. |
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John’s solution is some kind of piggyback/intercept from the Delta-T? Does it use the EFA as well? Or is it standalone? I might take a crack at it or something similar. Ideally I’d like to do away with the Delta-T and EFA entirely without losing any functionality. If I knew what parts they were using for the fans/sensors/heater, it might be easier to look up how to talk to them. I could throw a RH sensor in too for good measure, although I have heard those are notoriously unreliable and go bad often. |
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| Yeah, it's something I've looked into but don't have free time to do. I can definitely see a demand for it though. |
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John’s solution is some kind of piggyback/intercept from the Delta-T? Does it use the EFA as well? Or is it standalone? It just sits between the Delta T and the heaters themselves. It uses two of the same sensors for calculating the TDP. If there is any errors in the calculation it fails open, if the TDP shows dew is imminent it'll open, otherwise it just doesn't allow Delta T to actually turn the heaters on. Even if Delta T thinks it should based on your configuration data. Bill |
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Bill McLaughlin:Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: I'm currently talking with Pegasus about decoupling the aggressiveness setting on the Ultimate Power Box v3. The issue with using the Pegasus autodew function is that all the ports set up for auto-dew get the same power level when it kicks in. So if aggressiveness is set high enough to prevent dew on the main mirror, the secondary gets way overheated. This would only be a software change for Pegasus. The hardware already supports it. Failing that, I'll continue to work on triggers in the NINA advanced sequencer to set the dew heater power levels according to the differential between dew point (which the UPB reports through its ASCOM driver and can be referenced in the advanced sequencer) and ambient temp (also reported by the UPB through ASCOM). I've got a start on that, but as luck would have it, I haven't seen enough humid nights to really work it out. Even so, it's already starting to create a mess in my standard sequences (although I can ultimately mitigate that by pulling all those triggers out into a parallel process). The biggest problem I've encountered with the Delta-T is that it not only doesn't play well with others when it comes to power, but it is also a playground pariah when it comes to USB. Any time I have it powered on, my Moravian C5 spontaneously disconnects after a few hours. If I have the Delta-T turned off, that doesn't happen. It may have to do with USB traffic the Delta-T is generating. And I might be able to adjust that somehow in NINA or in various driver settings. But my god, I shouldn't have to be doing or even thinking about any of this at all. If Pegasus comes through, I'll turn off the Delta-T forever. I'm only using it right now merely to monitor the backplate, main mirror, and secondary mirror temperatures. |
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| Yikes, that gives me concerns about the UPB. I wonder if the same behavior happens if directly plugged in. It seems like a misbehaving USB device should not impact other devices, something seriously odd going on there. Almost sounds like it’s triggering a bug in the Pegasus and the Pegasus is going down. |
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Yikes, that gives me concerns about the UPB. I wonder if the same behavior happens if directly plugged in. It seems like a misbehaving USB device should not impact other devices, something seriously odd going on there. Almost sounds like it’s triggering a bug in the Pegasus and the Pegasus is going down. None of the other devices disconnects--Gemini, Sagitta with focuser, Alto-Giotto, guide cam, EFA, all-sky cam. I have a very similar configuration on my TOA and have had no issues with it six months in. It could be an issue with the camera. I'd guess the likelihood of that is about 50-50. I just know it behaves when the Delta-T is off--so far. I've only had this rig in the field for three weeks, so we'll see how things progress. The only thing I know for sure is that the Delta-T is a poorly designed piece of hardware and that bad design was executed poorly and cheaply in manufacture while commanding a stiff price tag. At this point, if the roof on my house 600 miles away gets hail damage, I'm going to blame the Delta-T first. So it's safe to say I'm losing any objectivity about it. OTOH, the CDK12 itself is a marvel. To say I'm pleased with the results I've been getting with it so far is an understatement. |
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Timothy Martin:Bill McLaughlin:Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: I heard back from Pegasus. They are putting independent autodew aggressiveness for each port on their roadmap. When will actually appear in the Unity software is anyone's guess. But at least it's in the development pipeline now. As for the camera disconnection issue, we've pretty much determined that it has nothing to do with the Delta-T. It's caused by high humidity and is a defect in that C5 unit. It was one of the first units made before they worked out the myriad of problems they've been having with them. I have a second C5 I purchased some months after the first one and it has performed flawlessly. In any case, Moravian has finally acknowledged the issue and is sending me a replacement. |
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Timothy Martin: I saw something similar and they sent me a new board. I have yet to install it, as the issue only occured for me in sub 0C temps. |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography: I started having this issue with this camera on my TOA in September as humidity started to climb in New Mexico. They sent me a new CPU and power board, saying it was a power issue in the U.S. But I saw a direct correlation with humidity. In early October, I received the second C5, which was intended for the CDK. Rather than do circuit board surgery in a dusty observatory in the desert, I just flew out with the new camera and swapped them. I replaced both circuit boards here at home. It was several months before I got the remaining parts to finish assembling the CDK. I bench tested the hell out of the original C5, leaving it up and running and cooling for days at a time in my studio. But my studio is a constant, regulated 40% humidity at all times. Finally, at the end of March, I took the CDK, with the original C5, out to New Mexico and commissioned the rig. The first week went perfectly. But humidity was at or below 40% that whole time. The second week was a train wreck. Humidity climbed to 60 to 75% during each of those nights and the camera disconnected repeatedly. I thought it might be the Delta-T, because I had just started using it. But that wasn't it. I communicated all this to Moravian (I've communicated my belief that this was humidity related since last September). The response was that I needed to replace the default 120W power supply with a 150W power supply. Um, the camera is supposed to only consume 5A at 12V. That's 60 watts. Seemed ridiculous to me--and frankly, it is. If this trend continues, I'm going to need the entire capacity of Comanche Peak Nuclear Power Station to keep this effing camera up and running. But none of this has, or has ever had, anything to do with power issues. It's all humidity. I flew out to NM last week to install the 150W power supply and used the official $300 Moravian mini-din 4-pin 3m 12V power extension cord. I had to completely redo the back harness on the scope. It worked fine for three nights--where humidity was low. On Tuesday night, it spontaneously disconnected at 1:40am. Checking the logs, humidity reached 60% at about 1:30am. On Wednesday night, it disconnected at 2:30am--again when humidity reached 60%. Last night, it functioned perfectly. Humidity never rose above 25%. I predict that tonight, it will work fine. Humidity is forecast to stay below 30%. Tomorrow night, it will disconnect because humidity is supposed to hit 70%. I'll report back as to whether these predictions are correct. But I've got a full $1 to put up against anyone who says they're not. |
